"I swear we learn more from the kids than we can ever impart on them." - Nicole Hauser

Nicole Hauser grew up in Monument, Colorado.

She graduated from the University of Wyoming in 2005 with her Bachelor in Social Work and in 2007 with her Master in Social Work.

She works with at-risk youth and the Executive Director of the Cathedral Home for Children based in Laramie, Wyoming.

Nicole also serves on the Wyoming Youth Services Association board and is a governor appointed member of the State Advisory Council on Juvenile Justice.

Show Notes:

• What Nicole Hauser likes about Wyoming
• Perks of living in Wyoming
• Why Nicole wanted to be a social worker
• What is the Cathedral Home for Children
• How people find out about Cathedral Home for Children
• How to talk about sex with your children

Emy DiGrappa: 00:08 Welcome to First But Last, brought to you by the Wyoming Humanities. I am your host, Emy DiGrappa. Wyoming is called The Equality State because we were the first to give women the right to vote. 150 years later, we wonder what Wyoming women think about the progress toward equality now. Let's find out and thank you for listening.

Today we are talking to Nicole Hauser. She is the executive director of the Cathedral Home for Children. Welcome Nicole.

Nicole Hauser: 00:42 Thanks Emy. Happy to be here. Excitedly nervous.

Emy DiGrappa: 00:46 Yeah. I, I finally pinned you down (laughs).

Nicole Hauser: 00:50 It's true. My apologies.

Emy DiGrappa: 00:51 (laughs). You're running away but I caught up to you (laughs).

Nicole Hauser: 00:51 You found me.

Emy DiGrappa: 00:57 You can run but you can't hide. So generally I just want to first start out by just learning about you and what your journey was to Wyoming and where, where did you grow up, first of all, and then what was your journey to Wyoming?

Nicole Hauser: 01:11 Okay. So I grew up in Monument, Colorado, and was born in Colorado Springs, moved up to Monument. And when the time came for college, I wanted something different, had gone to elementary school, middle school, high school with the same group of folks, really close with my family, have two younger brothers, so didn't want to go too far but wanted something different. And I'm a little bit of a, not a rebel, but I like to do things my own way, and so didn't want to go to any of the Colorado schools, and started researching the University of Wyoming and they have an accredited social work program. And I knew in high school, probably even before that, that I wanted to be a social worker, so it made the decision really easy. It was three hours away from home but not at home, and had a social work program.

So came here for school and I think like many college students, have this idea that you're gonna come to Laramie, do school and then leave. Right? That seems to be the, the way and Laramie grabbed a hold of me. I found a place. I found a community here. I found my career here, my partner, so it's just, I hope we'll always stay in Wyoming at this point.

Emy DiGrappa: 02:32 Well what do you find intriguing about Wyoming?

Nicole Hauser: 02:37 You know, initially I liked it for the open space. It wasn't very populated. Um, and as I've really grown up here now, I've lived in Wyoming longer than I have anywhere, anywhere else, it truly is the people. And then being a social worker, to be able to make true change even at a high policy level and to be really a voice at the table, is something that you in other places, my assumption would be that would be much more difficult. You know, you're, you're in rotary with your legislatures. Your neighbors are legislatures or state department heads and you have an opportunity to voice the needs of others and I as a professional, that is, that's a huge, a huge thing that I don't think a lot of people can say they get that access.

And then as a mom and a wife, Wyoming, I mean the people are, are, are wonderful. Like everybody cares about everybody it feels like. And, um, you can find and make a community anywhere, enjoy the sports, the outdoors, the weather sometimes.

Emy DiGrappa: 03:51 Just sometimes (laughs). And sometime, we have some really long, cold winters so you have to really love Wyoming. You have to really develop that thick skin to the cold and just be outside and be doing stuff.

Nicole Hauser: 04:05 Yeah, yeah. But I feel like there's a bond, right. So people that, those of us that live in Wyoming, we're bonded with one another. Right? We choose to live here. We want to be here. And so we all, like, have this understanding of, okay, this is our state. We're in this together. Yeah, you know, it's windy or cold but it's our wind and cold. You know, like it's okay. We, we like it.

Emy DiGrappa: 04:27 (laughs). [crosstalk 00:04:28]. We can do this.

Nicole Hauser: 04:30 Yeah, it's a badge of honor.

Emy DiGrappa: 04:32 It's a badge of honor, exactly. So you said earlier that you knew since you were in your early teens that you wanted to be in, in social work. Why, why is that? What was that inspiration?

Nicole Hauser: 04:44 So my mom's a social worker and got to really watch her impact people's lives in a way that I saw the value in that. I also saw her with one degree work in different fields, per se. So she worked at nursing homes. Um, she worked at assisted living centers and then she moved to, um, running international adoptions for an adoption agency. And so she was able to move with her career and still work with people, help people and make a difference. And that was really intriguing to me.

The other funny joke in my family, though, is my dad is retired law enforcement so my mom's social worker, my dad's retired law enforcement and those of you that know me, I'm, I'm pretty straightforward. I'm, I'm pretty intense at times so my dad always was like, "You would make an amazing cop. Like I think you're gonna be a police officer." And my mom would be like, "No, she's gonna be a social worker." And so my dad still to this day is like, "You should've been a cop. You would've been a great cop." So it's the running, the running joke in the family.

But just wanting to make a change and just kind of see where God put me in the world and what groups of people I was meant to help and here I am.

Emy DiGrappa: 06:07 Well first of all, tell me about your organization and, and what happens there?

Nicole Hauser: 06:12 So we are an agency that work, we work with youth, young adults, families, and really to try to encompass all that we do, the best way I can put it is we really help them rise from trauma. So the folks that we're walking alongside in their journeys, they have experienced either intense trauma, ongoing trauma, a traumatic event, but it really is impacting their ability to maybe cope or navigate the world as it is.

So by doing that, we offer community-based programming. So we work with families. In our wrap-around programs, we operate two crisis centers, one in Albany County and one in Carbon County. And we serve kiddos zero to 17 in those shelters. And then through our crisis centers we offer different programs to really help families way before entering the system or needing law enforcement or needing Department of Family Services or court involvement.

And then when there's a need for a higher level of care, we also offer residential treatment for adolescence, so age, ages 12 to 18. And they come here through a couple different avenues, and they're typically here with us about six to nine months. We have an on-site school so they attend school and intense therapy.

Emy DiGrappa: 07:39 Oh wow.

Nicole Hauser: 07:40 Yeah. So we, last year served 690 youth and families, young adults in our various programs. So our reach is wide and I'm really proud that we have a large impact.

Emy DiGrappa: 07:53 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nicole Hauser: 07:54 And we also, we employ 155 people. So we're, we're a large agency [crosstalk 00:08:03] big family.

Emy DiGrappa: 08:03 You have a big [crosstalk 00:08:04].

Nicole Hauser: 08:04 Yeah, so.

Emy DiGrappa: 08:04 Wow, whew.

Nicole Hauser: 08:05 You know.

Emy DiGrappa: 08:07 Is foster care part of that?

Nicole Hauser: 08:09 No. We don't offer foster care, but in our extended families program and through the crisis shelters, we work to support foster families and foster parents and work with Department of Family Services in any way we can. But we don't, we don't find foster families or train foster families in that sense. So that's one area we, we're kind of more indirect work with foster families.

Emy DiGrappa: 08:34 Is there one story that you can think of that has, uh, truly inspired your work of someone you've helped or, you know, you've really seen change in their life?

Nicole Hauser: 08:44 Oh, it's int- ... I get asked that a lot, and what's so hard is truthfully, there are, there are so many stories. I, you know, I think of a young lady we had who came into residential, had been on the run, as they were coining it. Come to find out she actually was being sexually trafficked for about three years and finally I use the quotes got caught, but was able to seek out help in the way that she knew how, and came into our program, took a long time for her to talk about what had happened to her, what she'd been through. And so because of that she was very angry and that makes sense, was really explosive, really working to push people away, right. Like I'm the scary kid. Don't come close, trust me, you know. And, um, my staff just kept showing her care and consistency and patience.

And it took a few months but she finally started sharing her story. And after that, just to see the change, hear from her parents, you know, thanking us that, that we, that we saved her. What I think is so important to note is it's the kiddos that are doing the work and the families that are doing the work. We're just here to walk alongside them, give them tools, resources, be a safe place where they can explore, but they're the ones that are making the change and sustaining the change and it's always amazing. I get emotional.

Emy DiGrappa: 10:23 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nicole Hauser: 10:24 To watch these kids and families rise from things that we could never imagine.

Emy DiGrappa: 10:31 Right.

Nicole Hauser: 10:32 They do it gracefully and they do it while having fun and they want something better for themselves. And I, I swear, I think we as staff feel like we learn more from the kids than we can ever impart on them. I think it's just, it's a blessing to be a part of, a little part of that change and resolve.

Emy DiGrappa: 10:53 Is that emotionally hard on your family life? I think if I was dealing with that intensity that would be hard to leave that at work and, and go home.

Nicole Hauser: 11:08 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Emy DiGrappa: 11:09 Especially when you see something really that breaks your heart, you know.

Nicole Hauser: 11:13 Yeah. It's interesting, I talk about this a lot with staff and social work students. You, you have to work at it. You have to work at keeping it separate. It doesn't happen. Right? I mean there's days where there's a lot of things going on and you go home and, you know, you're processing it and probably maybe more distant than you want to be with your family. But my, my family is supportive and understanding.

I don't know, I think honestly, I think that's why part of me, why I'm made for this line of work. I, I feel a lot. I have a big heart and I also care a lot for my family. And I think you can do both. Like it doesn't need to be one or the other. And it, you know, it takes time, it takes experience, it takes kind of hearing a lot of those stories, to be honest, to build up strength to keep moving.

But it, it still hits you, you know, and you, you know, we hear about kiddos that maybe after they've left, having hiccups or, you know, kind of fallen back to maybe some old coping mechanisms that weren't the best. And that still is always really hard and we work to tell our staff we can't take it personal, but no matter what, you, you care about these kiddos, you care about their families. And so it's always hard. It doesn't get easier, but knowing and hoping that we planted seeds and it'll still grow and come out the other side.

Emy DiGrappa: 12:43 The other thing that just came to my mind is that I think you have to have a certain hope for humanity in this because like you said, you helped over 600 families last year. Right?

Nicole Hauser: 12:58 Yeah.

Emy DiGrappa: 12:59 And so it's like you need to stay hopeful that, that things are gonna change and wouldn't it be better if you served 300 families, right, because then that's less people that you, you see that are in dire need of these services.

Nicole Hauser: 13:17 Right. I mean it'd be great if we were out of business, right, in the sense that the world was healed and people weren't going through pain. And yeah, that's, that's the ultimate goal, absolutely. We just keep working at it.

Emy DiGrappa: 13:31 So as a mom, do you have girls?

Nicole Hauser: 13:35 Yep, two girls, a 7th grader and a 5th grader.

Emy DiGrappa: 13:38 Oh my gosh, so much fun.

Nicole Hauser: 13:40 Yes.

Emy DiGrappa: 13:41 Yeah, now you're gonna have fun (laughs). I know, it's, I always think girls are so special. They're so different from having boys, and I have two girls as well, and I have a ... My youngest one is a boy. And people always say, "Well girls are so hard." And I'm like, "You know, I guess I disagree with that because my girls always told on themselves."

Nicole Hauser: 14:04 (laughs).

Emy DiGrappa: 14:06 They do (laughs). And, and boys, they will clam up. [crosstalk 00:14:12].

Nicole Hauser: 14:12 Just mark it down, huh?

Emy DiGrappa: 14:14 Yeah. And then you don't even know what's going on. They just, "I don't want to talk about it." You know?

Nicole Hauser: 14:20 Yeah. Well my girls, I'm, I [inaudible 00:14:21], I'm like, "I, I work with teenagers for a living. Like, uh, there's not much that's gonna get past me, so, so don't even [crosstalk 00:14:31]."

Emy DiGrappa: 14:31 [crosstalk 00:14:31].

Nicole Hauser: 14:30 Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah.

Emy DiGrappa: 14:34 No sneaking out of the house when you're 16?

Nicole Hauser: 14:36 Mm-hmm (negative), nope.

Emy DiGrappa: 14:37 So the other thing that we're celebrating is as Wyoming, being the first state to give women the right to vote, which has been really exciting.

Nicole Hauser: 14:47 [crosstalk 00:14:47].

Emy DiGrappa: 14:46 And that's why I'm doing these podcasts, and so we can give voices and hear from women all across our state, and learn about what they think makes Wyoming special, which is what you were saying earlier. But also, what, what are the things that in terms of we're first to give women the right to vote, but we're last in other areas. And how do you see that in terms of what is the leadership that can happen to get more women in politics and in the legislature?

Nicole Hauser: 15:20 You know, I, I think about this a lot, and especially as of late and excited to see a record number of women that went out, put their hat in for candidacy across, across the board, right, in Wyoming, in federal and that's really encouraging and, and yet, I still myself, I think, "Oh, I want to be a part of that. That's really important to me, that women are the table." And to be honest, I think there is that mom guilt, and you know, having young girls and having, um, a really busy job and involved in other boards and groups. It's like I couldn't. I, I couldn't right now and still do those other things at the level I want to. So I commend the women that are stepping up.

So I think that's a hard ... I don't know the solution. It takes a big sacrifice and I think deciding what that sacrifice is is important. It's interesting to see our, especially the numbers at least in the state legislature and how that's was really high at one point and then it dropped really low and climbing back up and trying to make sense of that is, is interesting. But yeah, I wish there were more women. I wish there were more young leaders out there.

I think being a woman leader, I guess what I came up against more was people thinking I was too young to lead or I was too young to be an executive, more so then I was a woman. And maybe that was, they hid behind the age instead of saying, "Well you're a female." But I use it as fuel and it's like, "Okay, I'll, I'll prove you wrong." And I have and I'm proud of that.

Emy DiGrappa: 15:20 (laughs).

Nicole Hauser: 17:05 And so I think that's also what I would say is leaders are leaders and they're gonna be there at any time, you know, and it doesn't need to be a calculated time or circumstance, just gotta lead when you're called to it and know when you're taking up too much. That'd be my, my take on it. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know how to get more people, more women to the table.

Emy DiGrappa: 17:32 Well, I, I think you hit it. I mean you're the first person that's called it mom guilt, but when I've talked to many other women, because what you said, it's a huge sacrifice and it's a huge sacrifice if you live anywhere else in the state besides Cheyenne and Laramie. You know, just because we have these long winters and having to be at the legislature, and so yeah, it makes all those things of mom, being a mom, taking care of your kids, and then running, you know, driving I80 or something. You know, it's like, wow.

Nicole Hauser: 18:06 Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot and I think, you know, my husband is an amazing partner, and I know that, you know, my girls are better off with him than they are me, for sure.

Emy DiGrappa: 18:15 (laughs).

Nicole Hauser: 18:15 But, um, it's still, it's just a thing that I think moms carry even if their situation is a supportive situation, and even if they have the resources to, you know, to do something to step up and lead in a different way. It just feels like it's, I don't know, it's just there and I don't know how, if that'll ever go away or what we've done as a society or culture to put that there. 'Cause yeah, I don't think it's, you know, my husband hasn't put that on me. I think it's just FOMO, right, the fear of missing out. Like I don't want to miss my daughter's volleyball match.

Emy DiGrappa: 18:48 (laughs). Yeah.

Nicole Hauser: 18:48 I don't wanna miss the choir performance.

Emy DiGrappa: 18:52 [crosstalk 00:18:52] true.

Nicole Hauser: 18:53 And, um, and I'm proud of those things, so.

Emy DiGrappa: 18:55 You gotta lead right where you are. That's a really good point, Nicole, and I, you're the first person that has really said that. You have to just be where you are and figure out how you can lead in your own community and make a difference. And I'm glad you don't have this, you know, I need to go out and save the world attitude. But you in a sense, you are saving the world because you work in this job that touches so many people's lives. You know, so you are leading right from where you are, and you are making sacrifices right from where you are. And, you know, just time and emotion and, and what the energy that you put in your work.

And I think that's an important thing to point out when we think about women in politics and women serving at the legislature. We have to remember that we make a difference right where we are.

Nicole Hauser: 19:51 Yeah.

Emy DiGrappa: 19:52 And we can't let that be a stigma. Like the only way you make a difference is if you are a senator or a house representative. You know, you, we have to think differently about that.

Nicole Hauser: 20:03 I like that. Think that was a great reframe. Thanks Emy. You made me sound smart.

Emy DiGrappa: 20:07 (laughs). Right. Well, the other thing that came to mind, I was listening to you and this young woman that you talked about, this young girl, and she was being human trafficked and that is a huge issue today. I mean it is frightening.

Nicole Hauser: 20:29 So I, yeah, to that, it's been an issue for a really long time. I think in recent years it's been given a title that really maybe adds more alarm to it. So, you know, the, the term is CSEC, right, commercially sexually exploited child, and before, when I say before, you know, years ago it, you would hear things like they were a runaway or they were, you know, abused, or big one was they're promiscuous. And it's taken a long time for us adults and society to say, "Hold up. These are kids who are being raped for gain of another adult." And that is so wrong. And why it's taken this long is really frustrating.

And I hear that, you know, people are like, "Oh, it's just come on new," and it's, "No. It hasn't. It's been going on. We just, I think, turned the other way, didn't really want to know what was going on," because it is scary. And to think that people would do that to kids, it's just hard to fathom, right, so it's easier to give it a different name.

And so now the attention drawn to it is good and we need to keep doing that and calling it out, you know, calling it for what it is and not fluffing up the term and what these kids are going through.

Emy DiGrappa: 21:58 Well and maybe as women have gained more rights, you know, there is more women in those leadership positions that are standing up and saying, you know, there's, there's two sides. You can't say, you know, a boy's just sewing his oats but a girl is a, is a whore or a slut.

Nicole Hauser: 22:20 Right, exactly.

Emy DiGrappa: 22:20 And taking those points of reference and changing our attitudes about young girls, and maybe not seeing the entire picture because we don't want to. We just think, "Oh, she's just, you know, a floozy," or whatever. But there's something so much deeper going on.

Nicole Hauser: 22:36 Yeah. Well and I [crosstalk 00:22:37] judgments about people all the time, right, and we don't know. We have no idea. We can't even fathom what they're going through and we're so quick to make a quick judgment. And what if we didn't, right? What if we took the time to just be open and be a safe space and know more, you know?

Emy DiGrappa: 22:57 Well what are, what are your thoughts about the hashtag me too movement?

Nicole Hauser: 23:01 I love it. I, I think it's another one of those, right, I'll feel sad that it took so long. I, I think victims are still not believed and it's just gonna keep taking really strong, strong and courageous people to say, "I don't care what you think. This, this did happen to me," and it's gonna take advocates to also step up and say, "I believe them and we're gonna fight for change."

I also think we can't stand in silence either, right. It's, right now, especially with so many things going on, I tell my girls this sometimes, right, like if you're with a group of friends and they're saying something bad about somebody else and you stay quiet because you don't want to rock the boat or you don't want to upset your friends, you being quiet can show that you agree with what they're saying. And I think right now in so many ways being silent maybe more detrimental and it's just gonna take a lot of, more of us stepping up and, um, supporting those that do, fighting for change and knowing it's worth it. It's a, it's a battle, right?

Emy DiGrappa: 23:01 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nicole Hauser: 24:15 It's not gonna be quick and easy. But geez, we go through childbirth. I mean if anybody can battle, it's women.

Emy DiGrappa: 24:25 That's for sure (laughs).

Nicole Hauser: 24:26 Yeah.

Emy DiGrappa: 24:29 Well I think, I, I love that you've talked to your daughters about that and how, how do they make a difference, and how are you teaching them to make a difference so that they're not sitting back and accepting bad behavior, that you're giving them enough confidence to say that is wrong and don't do that, or I disagree with you talking about that person like that? I think that that's really important for young girls.

Nicole Hauser: 24:59 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Emy DiGrappa: 25:00 And I'm sure it must be scary right now, not scary, but you know, as they enter into those teenage years and, you know, it's sex and boys. And how do you think you're gonna handle those things? (laughs).

Nicole Hauser: 25:17 Uh, yeah, I don't know, 'cause yeah, the teenage year, years are just so formative and I see that firsthand. So yeah, I don't know. I, I know I'm way more patient at work than I am at home so I can only, my poor girls. Like I can deal with an escaladed kiddo out here any day, and then my girls are raising their voice and I'm like, "Excuse me."

Emy DiGrappa: 25:17 (laughs).

Nicole Hauser: 25:41 So, you know, there's, there definitely is a difference. My hope is that my girls and I can have, and with their dad too, continued open dialogue, um, relationships. We, you know, have a rule in the family, like, whatever questions they ask we will give them the honest answers. I'd rather them ask us than maybe a friend, knowing they'll still ask their friends, right. But, you know, so we, we get a lot of red faces when my girls ask me for, you know, they heard a phrase at school and they don't know what it means and they ask me, and I'm like, gulp, "Okay, well I told you we would talk about it."

And so that's just my hope is that we can just, they can always come to us and we can sort it through and, but yeah, I think the, the closed off, like what you're talking about, the clamming up, I will have a hard time with that. So I just pray every day, "Lord, [crosstalk 00:26:33]."

Emy DiGrappa: 26:32 (laughs).

Nicole Hauser: 26:36 Yeah, you have to have two tactics. You have to have one that you're on your knees every day and the other is I'm just gonna shake it out of you. (laughter). [crosstalk 00:26:44]. I'm gonna just keep po- ... [crosstalk 00:26:47] until you tell me, yeah.

Emy DiGrappa: 26:49 (laughs). You can't ... I always tell people when your kids are growing up, no is a really good word (laughs).

Nicole Hauser: 26:59 [inaudible 00:26:59] say no. yep, exactly.

Emy DiGrappa: 27:03 (laughs). Well it has been so great talking to you.

Nicole Hauser: 27:06 You too Emy.

Emy DiGrappa: 27:06 [crosstalk 00:27:06] so inspiring. I just, I just love it. I love the work you do. And I love that you appreciate the work you do and how it makes a difference, you know, for Wyoming.

Nicole Hauser: 27:19 Thank you.

Emy DiGrappa: 27:20 And [inaudible 00:27:20], I have on last question about that because how do people find out about the Cathedral Home for Children? I mean is it through schools? Is it through social services? Or, I mean how do they come to you?

Nicole Hauser: 27:33 Yeah, so for our residential program, kiddos are placed through the court system or through a school district. And so we have developed relationships with those different groups and let them know our areas of strengths and what our program looks like and they on the other side know the kiddo that they've been working with and what those needs are. So then that starts the process. This is a little tiny soapbox.

What is really frustrating with the system of care in, even outside of Wyoming, is kiddos have to fail so many times and be in trouble for them to get this level of care. And I just think that's such a travesty. I mean if, if parents and kids, you know, want this dose of care early on to maybe avoid those other things, there needs to be a mechanism for that. And it's a big area of focus that we do in our development department so that we can try to break down those barriers, which the largest one being the financial expense. So that's what's hard is we're dealing with kiddos that have failed so many times and now will get this level of care.

Um, and as far as the crisis centers, we outreach the school districts Big Brothers, Big Sisters, you know, other local partner agencies so families can just show up without having to be involved with the court system to seek services. Teenagers themselves, we've had kids just come to the crisis center on their own wanting help. So it just, a lot of it's word of mouth.

Emy DiGrappa: 29:11 [crosstalk 00:29:11].

Nicole Hauser: 29:11 You know, especially in Wyoming. But as far as the higher level, it's the case workers. The court systems are familiar with us, so.

Emy DiGrappa: 29:20 Okay. So you serve all of Wyoming, not just Laramie?

Nicole Hauser: 29:24 Yes. And we actually also have kids, we serve youth from California and Nebraska as well.

Emy DiGrappa: 29:29 Wow.

Nicole Hauser: 29:30 And then our crisis centers see kids from all over. If they're in a crisis as they're passing through either Rawlins or Laramie. So we, we're here for kids. We're here for kids and families and no matter where they're from. And just want to be here for them.

Emy DiGrappa: 29:48 [crosstalk 00:29:48]. It's great that your mom inspired you so much.

Nicole Hauser: 29:51 Yeah.

Emy DiGrappa: 29:51 That you, that you really followed in her footsteps and she was an inspiration in your life. And, you know, as a mom, that's, that's your hope, right, that you inspire your children somehow. And, um, yeah, so that, not that they're gonna follow in your footsteps, but that you've inspired them to care and have compassion.

Nicole Hauser: 30:14 [crosstalk 00:30:14].

Emy DiGrappa: 30:14 And, and go out into the world with a lot of hope and inspiration for other people.

Nicole Hauser: 30:20 Yeah, make it better. That's exactly, yep.

Emy DiGrappa: 30:24 It's been great talking to you. Thank you so much.

Nicole Hauser: 30:26 [inaudible 00:30:26]. You too.

Emy DiGrappa: 30:31 Thank you for listening to First But Last, brought to you by The Wyoming Humanities. Please join us again next week as we continue our conversations with women from around the state. You can also find us at thinkwy.org, where we continue the conversation on our blog about the history, journey and the challenges of Wyoming's intrepid women living in The Equality State. And if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the show and leave us a review on iTunes. Thank you for listening.


“Being a social worker, being able to make true change -- even at a high policy level -- and to really be a voice at the table, is something that in other places would be much more difficult." - Nicole Hauser

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